This is a full transcript of the Nirvana Sisters podcast Episode 133 .

Editor’s Note: Please know that this podcast transcript is automatically generated and may contain minor errors such as typos and word switches. For more information, be sure to listen to the podcast here.

Speaker A: Welcome to Nirvana Sisters podcast, where we take the intimidation out of well being and beauty to help you achieve your highest state, your nirvana. We are Sisters in law and your hosts. I'm Amy Sherman.

Speaker B: And I'm Katie Chandler. So let's get into some real conversation. Welcome to the show nirvana Sisters family. Today we are sitting down with Dr. Zach Abbott. Zach is the CEO and co founder of ZBiotics. Zach has a PhD in Microbiology and Immunology from the University of Michigan and holds a bachelor's degree from UC Berkeley, where he double majored in Immunology and Classical art and Archaeology. During his PhD, the focus of Zach's thesis was on bacterial gene regulation. That sounds super interesting. And he became an expert at understanding how bacteria turn on and off different functions in response to their environment. After his PhD, zach then had the idea to apply his expertise to the world of safe edible probiotic bacteria. He wanted to engineer these probiotic bacteria, which to date had only been leveraged for the generalized and inconsistent benefits to do a very specific and usual function directly inside the human body. Combining the tools of genetic engineering with the safe microbes already around us, his goal was to create something new, a microbe trained to do something that provided a unique, specific, intangible benefit for people. Zach dove into the research project that would eventually become ZBiotics. He holed up his lab in Berkeley, California, often sleeping next to his lab bench. I'm sure there were some long nights and after twelve months emerged with the prototype of the world's first genetically engineered probiotic. So that's all super interesting and really exciting and I can't wait to tell our listeners about it because I am a very big fan of ZBiotics and have been using it for quite some time. So welcome to the show.

Speaker C: Yeah, well, thanks so much for having me. I feel like maybe I could have done a better job writing that bio, but glad I'm excited to get into it with you.

Speaker B: No, the bio is great. I mean, we need to know the nitty gritty for sure, especially with something that is as interesting as this. So for the listener, ZBiotics is a pre alcohol probiotic. And the best way that I can describe it is you take it essentially with your first alcoholic beverage and it cures you of your hangover. You wake up the next day feeling, I think, pretty great. I've always felt really good on it and I think I've used it, I want to say like four or five times over the last couple of years. When did the product start? When did you first launch?

Speaker C: Yeah, we launched it in August of 2019, so it's been around for about a little over four years.

Speaker B: Very cool. All right, so break it down for us. Tell our listeners, what is Zbiotic's? Pre alcohol probiotic.

Speaker C: Totally. Yeah. So first and foremost, I'll say that you mentioned the word hangover. And I think that that term we found is a very loaded term for people and they associate it with a lot of things that maybe we don't really mean or that we're going to get into. And so, really talk about kind of the idea that this product, the purpose of the product is to kind of be like another tool in your toolbox, along with other responsible drinking habits to help you kind of land on your feet and get more done the next day. Maintain those healthy habits and routines. And so some people associate a hangover with kind of like binge drinking and kind of like misery or throwing up on the toilet, things like that that are not really I think that's above and beyond for some people. And so this product is more around kind of definitely making you feel better the day after drinking and some people kind of refer to that as a hangover but not everybody kind of thinks the same way. So anyway, happy to describe. Yeah, so exactly as you said the product, it's a pre alcohol probiotic. So you take that product before you drink and then when you drink alcohol is sort of broken down into this toxic byproduct called acid aldehyde in your body. And so this acid aldehyde is kind of responsible for some of the things that you might feel the next day. Some of the important things that kind of interrupt how much you're likely to get on kind of with your day. And so our product is a bacteria probiotic bacteria that can basically break down that acid aldehyde as it forms while you're drinking so that you can feel better the next day. And so that's the general idea.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think it's fair to say the way that maybe I first positioned it, it might sound like one is using this for a really big night. And sure, of course, but it's also kind of like the wellness person's way of processing this essentially toxic thing that we're putting into our bodies and helping us break it down better so that we feel much better the next day, whether it's a couple of drinks or a big night out. I mean, I definitely used it for a big night out. It was a friend's birthday party this past summer and it saved me. But on the flip side, I was just in the Dominican Republic with some best friends this past weekend and she had Z biotics with just a couple. It's a girl's weekend, we're not getting into anything crazy and we use the ZBiotics and it was great. So I would say then my next question, people, I think mostly assume that we feel bad the next day from drinking alcohol because of dehydration. What do you have to say to that?

Speaker C: Yeah. So first, I'll say that to your first point, it's exactly right that the drinking events that happen, whether they're big or small, are, like, for a lot of people, it's an important part of your socializing kind of, like, different experience you have with traveling or going out with your friends or a party or whatever it might be. But the value we see for our customers is really in kind of like being able to maintain the healthy habits and routines the next day. And so when these drinking events occur, you can have ZBiotics as a way to ensure that the next day, the second day of your trip, just as good as the first, right? Or that you make your morning workout or that morning hike, you meet with your friends, whatever that might be. So that is really kind of like the focus. It is definitely around wellness and kind of like living a full life. To your question around dehydration, it's a good one. I think that there's this sort of like pervasive myth around alcohol and dehydration and this belief that alcohol causes dehydration, even though we know in the scientific literature that alcohol doesn't really cause significant dehydration. And I think that this myth is sort of based on the idea that we observe that we tend to pee a lot when we drink alcohol. And it's known that alcohol inhibits a hormone called the antideuretic hormone, which regulates how much you pee. So this belief, though, that that must be the root cause of why you feel bad, but we actually know that's not true. And we have known that for a long time scientifically. I think everybody probably also knows this. If you do the thought experiment, right, other things that cause dehydration don't feel anything, like true, like the way you feel the day after drinking, right? If you exercise or you eat salty foods or you're out in the sun, you do not feel like you feel after you've been drinking, right? Those are very different feelings. They're very different things. And also the cure for dehydration is to drink water. And we all know that when we've had a rough morning after drinking, that having a couple of glasses of water really does nothing to kind of help you feel better. Right? It just takes time. And so these are very different processes, we know that, I think, intuitively, but we'd like to have something and so we sort of are like oh, and so these brands are selling us on electrolytes and rehydration AIDS as a way to kind of leverage this sort of belief that dehydration must be a problem. But we know that's actually not true. And so the question really becomes like, well, what is true? And I think what I think has really been interesting to me as a scientist in digging into this question of what's happening when you drink, is that as with anything, it's actually really complicated. There's a whole bunch of stuff happening, sort of like a symphony of stuff. But if I were to sort of simplify it down, it's kind of a story of two molecules. So you have alcohol itself, so the ethanol, and then you have this metabolic byproduct of alcohol called acid aldehyde. And those two things are both toxic molecules that aren't great for you, and they cause disturbances in your body in various ways. And so the alcohol, basically, it affects the quality of your sleep, it irritates your gut. It sort of has this effect on many different hormones in your body and the way you regulate kind of hunger and satiation. So those midnight cravings after drinking are really due to the alcohol. And then simultaneously, it sort of affects the way your blood sugar and insulin balance are affected the next day as well. And so all those things have sort of some of the negative consequences you might experience. But then I'd say probably even more important in terms of the way you feel the next day is acid aldehydes, this very toxic molecule. It sort of wreaks havoc throughout the body. It's able to kind of cause cell death, which causes systemic inflammation. It's able to bind to receptors in your brain and create sort of like those feelings of nausea and sort of like that toxic death feeling you might get or that malaise that kind of prevents you from your day. And acid aldehyde is an important part of why you feel that way. And so those are like the two main things you're dealing with. There's a few other really interesting things that are happening as well. I'm oversimplifying, but generally speaking, those are the big buckets. And so the idea behind Zibiotics is that we could help with the acid aldehyde at least, right? Like the alcohol is why people are drinking in the first place. And so whatever that might be that you're experiencing from that. So we thought that at least we could get some of these really nasty, kind of some of that misery that you're dealing with the next day if we tackle the acid problem. So that's what we set up.

Speaker B: So ZBiotics essentially breaks down the I'm going to say it wrong, you know what I'm saying? Acidillahaldehyde.

Speaker C: Yeah, acid aldehyde.

Speaker B: Say it again.

Speaker C: Yeah, acid.

Speaker B: Acid aldehyde. Okay. That's not as challenging as I thought.

Speaker C: It was going to be.

Speaker B: Acid aldehyde.

Speaker C: Yeah, it looks more it really does.

Speaker B: So that is what the Z biotics does, and it is essentially a probiotic. Does this work in your gut then?

Speaker C: Yes, exactly. So we started with a live probiotic bacteria. So, like, this bacteria is a safe, edible bacteria that you can eat, and you do already eat this bacteria every day of your life. The species Bacillus subtleus is what's called B subtilis. It's a common bacteria used in the fermentation of food like NATO or Kombucha or chocolate. B subtleus is often kind of involved in that fermentation process. And it's also just kind of like all over your kitchen counter. It's kind of everywhere and you eat it all the time. And so then we took that bacteria and then we engineered it to kind of perform one extra function in addition to all the other things that it's already doing. And so this extra function was the ability to break down acid aldehyde. And so your liver is very good at breaking down acid aldehyde, but unfortunately, by the time it makes its way to the liver, it's already kind of wreak havoc throughout your body, because that acid aldehyde is actually being formed in large part in the gut. And so basically, to kind of step back a little bit, when you drink, most of the alcohol you drink is absorbed into the bloodstream. The alcohol circulates out the body. It has the effects that it has, and then it makes its way to the liver, and it's broken down in two stages. So the alcohol is converted into acid aldehyde, and then the acid aldehyde is converted into acetate. And acetate is essentially vinegar. It's innocuous at this point, the molecule has been detoxified. And so those two steps happen with two different enzymes, and the liver is very good at both steps. So basically, once the alcohol makes its way to the liver, it's almost all being converted entirely to acetate. A small amount of alcohol is actually being broken down directly in the gut before it gets absorbed into the bloodstream. And so it's like, not really a relevant amount in terms of intoxication or the effects of alcohol itself, but even though it's a small amount, this alcohol is almost all being converted to acid aldehyde, that first step of the reaction, but not the second step. So the microbes in your gut are basically breaking down a little bit of alcohol into acid aldehyde, but not subsequently to acetate. And so what happens is that even though it's a small amount of alcohol, basically it's producing acid aldehyde, and that osalide starts to build up in the gut. The gut ends up being the major source of acid aldehyde in the body, even though it's a minor source of alcohol breakdown. And so we know that the scientific literature is very clear that colonic levels of acid aldehydes we look in the gut, and the levels of acid in the gut, they're five to ten times higher than they are in the bloodstream, even though, like I say, this is a very minor source of alcohol metabolism. And so this is actually the major source of acid aldehyde. And then, of course, that acid is highly soluble. It diffuses out of the gut into the bloodstream, circulates throughout the body, kind of wreaks havoc, and then it makes its way to the liver and it's broken down really efficiently. But at that point, it's kind of too late. So we thought, let's move that function of the liver, that one single enzyme that converts acidol die into acetate, and let's just put it in the gut. And so we basically engineered this safe, edible probiotic bacteria to express this very safe common enzyme in the location where it matters right, for the way you feel the next day. And so it's really just kind of like transferring that tray of the liver into the gut, break down that side in the gut before kind of gets absorbed in the bloodstream.

Speaker B: It's so interesting. And then does it essentially, basically just compound the more drinking that you do, the more glasses of, let's say, wine that you have just naturally, the more acid aldehyde that is in your system. And so that's the obvious reason why for most, if you have one or two drinks versus four or five, it can make a difference in how you feel the next day. And I'm also curious, a lot of people, our livers, they go under a lot of stress, right? I mean, especially if you take a lot of supplements, if you have to take prescription medication, if someone's liver is less healthy than someone else's, is that also another factor of how they're breaking it all down?

Speaker C: Absolutely. It's a good point that drinking itself is like putting stress on your liver, like all that alcohol that it has to break down. And I love that you said like supplements. There's a lot of things that we take that really have to be processed by our liver and our kidneys. And the more we kind of put wear on those tires, the more they wear down. And so that's a really great point. And as we get older, I think we all notice that we start to get impact, like less drinks impact us more. And that's in part because the function of our organs, like our liver and kidneys are not as spry as they used to be in our twenty s. And so that's absolutely, that's absolutely true. And the worse kind of your liver, the less effective your liver is, the slower you'll be able to break this stuff down and the longer you're exposed to it, which means the more damage and then that you feel the next day.

Speaker B: Yeah. There's a reason why when you're like 24 you can party all night and when you're 44 can't.

Speaker C: Exactly. Right. Two or three drinks feels like a dumb track hitting you, whereas when you were 20 you wouldn't even notice.

Speaker B: All right, well, let's talk a little bit about then how one would use ZBiotics and how they're going to feel on it and does it affect their level of intoxication? Maybe we can start there. If you have it with your first drink, is it going to have any effect on your evening in that regard?

Speaker C: It shouldn't. Right? Because the whole point is that your body is still in charge of breaking down the alcohol the same way it always did. And then Zebotus really steps in on that second step after the alcohol has been converted into acid aldehyde. And so the acid aldehyde doesn't have any effect on the intoxication itself. And so all the same rules, with or without Zebotics still apply for responsible drinking. Making sure that you know your limits, you pace yourself, you drink in moderation, you make sure you're drinking plenty of water, not drinking on empty stomach. All those things are still really important. And then the idea is that if you do all those things, you're still going to be exposed to some amount of acid aldehyde. And so Zebiotics is there to kind of help with that piece of the puzzle. So we've kind of like invented something to deal with, something with a part of the problem that currently nothing existed to kind of deal with, even though you had these other kind of best practices. So yeah, you should feel the same in terms of the impact of the alcohol. But then of course, the next day you'll ideally feel better.

Speaker B: But now, should one expect us to be like a superhuman feeling better? Like the next day, am I going to wake up and want to go run a marathon or am I just going to not feel like I'm dying?

Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, to some extent, I hate to give sort of a science answer here, but it depends on the person and their biology as to how you feel the next day. What we can definitely say is that you will feel better. And for some people, indeed, we literally have testimonials where people go. I've had people send me screenshots of the Strava where they've run like 7 miles the next morning after going out in Nashville with their friends or whatever. And so it kind of depends on who you are and how alcohol affects you because it's going to be kind of different for everybody. That being said, you'll definitely feel better. The whole point of the product is to essentially reduce the friction on you getting on with the important, natural, healthy parts of your day, like exercising or meeting up with friends or whatever it might be. That is the benefit of the product. And you should feel that way. That being said, are you going to wake up and definitively feel nothing? Probably unrealistic. As I say, the next day effects of drinking are very complicated. There's a lot of facets going around that your body's dealing with our product helps you with a really important part of that. And so the other things that you're dealing with related to alcohol itself, like for instance, I think one of the important ones is poor sleep. So you may wake up the next day and feel groggy even if you don't kind of feel all the rest of that misery, which could impact kind of like how motivated you are to get things done. And so good news is, like a good breakfast, some coffee can really address some of that. But I also myself personally when I'm drinking, in addition to taking z biotics. As I say, I try and maintain all the other healthy habits I have, and one of the most important ones is making sure I get plenty of sleep and trying to go to bed sober. So stopping drinking earlier in the night so that my body has time to process that alcohol so that when I go to bed, there isn't alcohol in my brain affecting because the alcohol binding receptors in the brain are just kind of part of what affects the quality of your sleep. So trying to mitigate that symptom using other kind of behaviors and practices is really yeah.

Speaker B: As somebody that has used the product multiple times, it is interesting. I have had different experiences the next day. The underlying current is that I always feel certainly better than I would have had I not taken it. And there's been a couple of times where I remember like one or two days I was groggy. But you're right, I didn't sleep very well. And I can go to bed with having nothing to drink, having had the best wellness day exercised and still have a bad night's sleep. It is interesting how it is unique to someone's biology and it can affect one different ways. I mean, a friend, we have a mutual friend, and he is like the Bionic Man and he takes very good care of himself and he uses Ebiotics, and I think he probably is one of those guys that's getting up and running a marathon the next day.

Speaker C: Yeah, totally.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker C: Yeah. There's no doubt about it that alcohol definitely affects the quality of your sleep. It's definitely not going to help. And so I think an important part is just being aware of all the things that are kind of like, happening. And I think that taking steps to mitigate each of those together in a holistic sense. And to your point, everybody's biology is different. And our goal here is to work with your biology and that includes kind of your own decision making as opposed to sort of like kind of giving you gal gel free card that mitigates everything because that's just not right.

Speaker B: Of course. Okay, well, I want our guests to know where they can find Zibiotics. But before you say that, I just want you to know you guys are everywhere because last night, one of Amy's friends unfortunately, Amy's not here with us today. She couldn't be with us today, but just randomly texted her a photo of her holding her Zbiotic saying, have you heard of this? Literally. Yeah. I could show it to you. I'll show you the photo and the timestamp of the date. It's wild. So you are everywhere. So tell us, where can our listeners find you?

Speaker C: That is so cool. I'm glad to hear that. Best place to find us is just on our website, zbiotics.com. And yeah, we have a lot of information there about the product, but also a lot of things we're talking about here, like best practices around drinking without the product and how alcohol affects your body, and a lot of stuff about the microbiome. We don't have time to get into it now, but my PhD in microbiology, I'm really passionate about disseminating information about just kind of understanding your gut environment and the microbes that live there. And I think there's a lot of really cool, kind of honest things that we can talk about in that space as well. So we try and address some of that.

Speaker B: Yeah, your website is genius. It has a lot of great information and for those that like to dig into the science of it all. And you know what? We should have you back to talk about the microbiome because it is fascinating. So I know that you would love to have a conversation with you as well. All right, so before I let you go, let's get into our wrap session because I'm super curious what your answers are going to be to this. So what is your favorite wellness or beauty hack?

Speaker C: Okay, so my favorite wellness hack is as you can tell, I don't probably have a ton of beauty hacks, but my favorite wellness hack is frozen cauliflower in my smoothie. So there was this really cool, basically, study that came out in 2021. It was this huge metaanalysis of 2 million people over the course of 30 years, and they followed their health and their diet and all these things. They analyzed basically, in this case, specifically, what's the optimal amount of fruit and veg that you should be eating every day. And it was that at least two servings of fruit and three servings of vegetables a day was like the optimal amount. Anything above that didn't hurt, but it sort of didn't provide an increased benefit. And so, okay, that feels like doable generally, right? Especially two fruit. I think I can do that. But three veg really takes a concerted effort, right. That means you're having a serving of vegetables with every meal and kind of hard to work vegetable into an easy I'm eating a bowl of cereal a lot of times. So what I do now is basically, if I add, like, three quarters of a cup of frozen cauliflower to my smoothie in the morning, you blend it up, and basically, it's a very neutral flavor, and it adds, like, a nice texture. Gives, like, a sort of a creamy, smoothie texture to it, but you don't really taste it. And so it's sort of like this free veg that you get right off the bat out of the gate for the day. I've already gotten one serving of vegetables.

Speaker B: That's a good one. It's hidden in there. That would also be a really good way to get vegetables into my children, I feel like.

Speaker C: Yes, kids also don't detect.

Speaker B: Nice. That's a great one. Okay, so this next one is like, maybe a little bit more for the ladies that we have interviewing on the show, but I'm still curious. It's your five minute flow. You just got in the shower and you're drying off and uber's pinged you. They're five minutes away. What are you doing to get out the door on time? I have a feeling this is probably like, for most men, always the same, but what do you got?

Speaker C: Yeah, five minutes is ample. Basically, speed stick deodorant. That's my scent. And then a little bit of the matte hair cream to kind of keep the hair out of my face, and I'm pretty much good to go.

Speaker B: I tell you what I know.

Speaker C: It's not fair. It's not fair. I agree.

Speaker B: All right. And the last one is, how do you maintain your daily nirvana?

Speaker C: I think the most important thing that I do every day for myself is I always make sure to end my day getting to read a book or listen to a book, one of the two. And even if it's like, I'm really tired, it's only, like, a few pages, I find that that's a really important way for me to kind of unwind, be quiet and kind of, like, allow my imagination to go a little bit. I spend a lot of time talking to people in a lot of meetings and things like that. And to be clear, these are books are fun books, not like self improvement or anything like that. These are like fantasy or comedy or mystery. Like things that just allow me to kind of decompress a little bit. So I think it's an important part.

Speaker B: All right, well, Zach, thanks so much for being here. I really appreciate it's. Great to connect. We've been trying to connect for a long time, and we are, like, avid fans of ZBiotics, and I know a lot of people are, so I'm sure our listeners are going to be super psyched to learn about it today. So thank you.

Speaker C: Well, thank you for having me. This is super fun.

Speaker A: Thanks for listening to Nirvana Sisters. For more information on this episode, check out the show notes. Please subscribe and leave us a review. Also, find us on Instagram at Nirvana Sisters. If you loved what you just listened to or know someone that would, please share it and tag us. Tune in next week for a fresh new episode of Nirvana Sisters. We'll continue to watch out for all things wellness so you don't have to.

Speaker B: Bye.